Trust fund transcripts
The following are transcripts from 6PR radio on two consecutive
days.
2 October, 2001
Paul Murray
I want to start you off with an issue that was raised in the estimates
debate last Friday in the parliament; they were looking at matters
to do with the health budget and your Labor colleague John Quigley,
raised the matter of the audits which have been done on trust accounts
in the hospitals, a matter which actually I raised on this program
at the Royal Show last year, that's how far back it goes, when
those audits first became public. John Quigley made some allegations
that there was corruption involved which had been uncovered in
these audits. Now I understand that those audits have now been
delivered to government and I believe they're going to Treasury
this week - what are you going to do about them?
Eric Ripper
Well I have some responsibilities under the FAAA Act as the Treasurer
and I'm certainly seeking advice from Treasury as to what those
responsibilities would require with regard to these trust accounts.
Very disturbing information you get from time to time about these
trust accounts - there are sometimes allegations of misuse of the
money or inappropriate financial transactions, shall we put in
that way, and I'd certainly want to get to the bottom of that.
Paul Murray
It was said in an article in The West Australian on Saturday,
that your Undertreasurer John Langoulant, is meeting with the acting
head, the acting commissioner for health Professor Stokes; what
will they be doing?
Eric Ripper
Well, I hope that they will be discussing what's in that report
because I've asked Treasury for advice on what my responsibilities
are and how I should act as Treasurer in dealing with these matters
because these are public accounts, there might be a questionmark
about who ultimately owns the money but they are public accounts
subject to the law and I want to ensure that the law is enforced
rigorously with regard to these accounts.
Paul Murray
When this matter first raised last year, it was raised by the
former head of Princess Margaret Hospital and King Edward Michael
Moodie, and when Moodie raised Moodie actually got the audits done
in the first instance on PMH and KEMH and in those reports done
by Ernst and Young, this was what was said to have been uncovered
at that stage. Bulk billing public patients, which is illegal...sorry,
yeah, bulk billing of public patients which is illegal; diversion
of revenue away from the hospital; allegations of potential tax
evasion; and the fact that trustees may have benefited personally
from trust fund expenditure. Now, incredibly serious matters to
have been sitting around in government now for over a year.
Eric Ripper
Well Paul I agree with you, those are very serious allegations.
There is a report which has been given to, I understand, the Health
Minister, or at least the Commissioner of Health. I want to get
to the bottom of it because the law needs to be enforced absolutely
rigorously with regard to these matters. We will not tolerate corruption,
misappropriation of money, tax avoidance or any other inappropriate
financial transactions with regard to these trust accounts, and
this has been an issue which has been around for a long time, from
time to time there have been allegations made and I'm determined
on behalf of the Government to get to the bottom of it and to take
action against any wrongdoing.
Paul Murray
Are you aware that the Health Insurance Commission is also investigating
this matter, they've... Health Insurance Commission which runs
Medicare?
Eric Ripper
Well I'm aware that they have responsibilities with regard to
this matter, I'm not aware of a particular investigation but I
wouldn't be surprised if they were because some of their money
might well be at risk here.
Paul Murray
Well, when are we going to see an outcome here because it just
appears that no-one particularly wants to pull on blue with the
doctors about this?
Eric Ripper
Well I haven't been backward in coming forward with regard to
the doctors Paul, I rejected their outrageous wage demand and I
pointed out to the public that some of it was based on compensation
for failed tax avoidance schemes, so we've taken a strong line
with the doctors, we've offered them a fair wage increase but we've
not been prepared to go beyond what other public sector employees
get, unless they're prepared to cooperate with us in a reform program
that will help deliver the extra money for interstate parity that
they say they require.
So I'm not afraid to take on the doctors and I'm particularly
not afraid to take them on, on issues such as this where there
may have been wrongdoing of public funds
Paul Murray
There's been a suggestion made to me that this matter may end
up before the public accounts committee of the parliament - is
that an option available to you?
Eric Ripper
Well it's an option available to the public accounts committee,
that's an independent committee. The public accounts committee
has already looked at the outrageous sums paid to some visiting
medical officers in the health system and I'm sure they'd be interested
in having a look at how the trust funds have been used, or misused.
Paul Murray
So can we look forward to an early resolution of this now, because
as I say, it just has been lingering around like a bad smell in
government for far too long?
Eric Ripper
Well I agree with you, this is an issue which was raised during
the period of the previous government, it's now been raised again,
there is a report, I think it does need to be resolved.
3 October, 2001
Paul Murray
So, as you heard Eric Ripper say yesterday he won't stand for
any corruption in this matter and he's hoping that his Under-Treasurer,
John Langoulant who will meet with the Acting Health Commissioner,
Professor Bryant Stokes tomorrow will get to the bottom of it.
Bernard Pearn-Rowe is the President of the AMA. They've got a
view on this matter as well and he's on the line. Good morning
Bernard.
Bernard Pearn-Rowe
Good morning Paul. Let me say at the outset that I won't stand
for any corruption either, and if these reviews were able to find
any evidence of misuse of funds or misappropriation the AMA would
want to see people guilty of that pursued to the full extent of
the law. No, let's have no doubt at all about that.
Paul Murray
Well, I've got a copy of the audit report done on the 20th September
last year and it found exactly what you're talking about. This
seems to have been hanging around forever Bernard.
Bernard Pearn-Rowe
No Paul. I don't think it did find what I'm talking about. What
we know is that hospitals have put pressure upon clinicians to
treat public patients by bulk-billing them, to generate funds for
the hospitals and for the trust funds that operate to provide services
for the hospitals and provide equipment that the hospital doesn't
otherwise have. The implication that this bulk-billing is going
straight into the doctors own pocket is quite incorrect. Now, we
have on file... (cut off by Murray)
Paul Murray
No, they go into accounts at the doctors discretion as I understand
it.
Bernard Pearn-Rowe
That's right Paul and they're then used to pay for things like
research funds, for equipment that is not purchased otherwise by
the State Government. So there has been three reviews so far and
I would love to see them made public Paul, because all the information
I have is that they have not discovered diddlely squat. There is
no evidence of any misappropriation and I just wonder how much
of tax payers money is going to be wasted by a Treasurer who is
desperate to throw a smoke screen over his Government's appalling
management of the health portfolio.
Paul Murray
So your view is that they've gotta be out in the open Bernard.
Bernard Pearn-Rowe
I want them to pay up or shut up because I'm tired of this innuendo
that's been thrown over my profession. The Minister for Health
says that there's something, no I beg or pardon, he said there
isn't - he's the only who's right on this particular occasion.
The Treasurer has said there's something there. There's an insinuation
that there is something shady going on - I don't believe there
is. If you've got something, let's have it in the open, and if
there is somebody rorting the system we will support absolutely
any measures to bring them to justice and to have them pursued
to the full extent of the law. I believe Paul, there is no such
double-dealing going on.
Paul Murray
Okay, thanks a lot for that Bernard.
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